CNN Anderson Cooper 360 [9PM] 10/11/19 | CNN Breaking News Oct 11, 2019


>>>GOOD EVENING. WE START A TWO-HOUR BROADCAST WITH BREAKING NEWS. CABINET OFFICIAL WHO TOLD THE WASHINGTON HOST HE DIDN’T HAVE CONTROL OVER THE, QUOTE, TONE, MESSAGE, THE PUBLIC FACE AND APPROACH, UNQUOTE OF HIS DEPARTMENT HAS ANNOUNCED HIS DEPARTURE. THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF IS OUT. IT OCCURS THE SAME DAY A JUDGE SAID THE ADMINISTRATION COULD NOT USE MILITARY FUNDING TO BUILD THE BORDER WALL. HERE WITH MORE TONIGHT IS CNN KAITLAN COLLINS. WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT HIS DEPARTURE?>>Reporter: THIS IS SUDDEN. THE PRESIDENT TWEETING E ING TH. EVER SINCE HE FIRST GOT NAMED TO THIS JOB UNDER, OF COURSE, AN ACTING POSITION, PEOPLE NEVER ENVISIONED HIM TAKING THE JOB IN A PERMANENT ROLE. HE WAS AT ODDS WITH THE PRESIDENT AND SOME OF HIS TOP ADVISERS, INCLUDING MILLER, AND THEIR ROLES AND WHERE THEY WANTED TO GO ON IMMIGRATION. THERE WERE TIMES WHERE THE PRESIDENT WAS PLEASED WITH WHAT HE WAS DOING. THERE WERE OTHER TIMES WHERE THE PRESIDENT WITH A LASH OUT AND BLAME HIM FOR THE BORDER POLICIES, HIGH BORDER CROSSINGS. SOMETHING ELSE THAT’S INTERESTING THAT HAPPENED IN RECENT WEEKS, HE GAVE THIS INTERVIEW TO “THE WASHINGTON POST” WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT HOW ESSENTIALLY HE LAMENTED THE FACT HE DIDN’T FEEL HE HAD CONTROL OVER THE TONE, THE POLICY AT THE DEPARTMENT AT A TIME WHEN HE SAID THEY FELT LIKE THEY WERE IN POLARIZED TIMES. WE’RE TOLD THAT INTERVIEW, HE DIDN’T UNDERSTAND THAT HE WAS ON THE RECORD BASED ON WHAT SOMEONE CLOSE TO HIM LATER TOLD CNN. ESSENTIALLY, HE THOUGHT THAT INTERVIEW WAS GOING TO LAND HARDER IN THE WEST WING THAN IT DID. IT CAME AT THIS TIME WHERE THIS IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY AGAINST THE PRESIDENT WAS RAMPING UP. THERE WAS DISTRACTION. NOW THE PRESIDENT ANNOUNCING HE IS LEAVING TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH HIS FRIENDS AND FAMILY. HE IS GOING TO ANNOUNCE A REPLACEMENT, HE SAYS, NEXT WEEK.>>NOT SURPRISING TO A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM AND KNEW THE SITUATION. WAS THIS — IS THERE REASON TO BELIEVE IT WAS A SUDDEN DECISION? WAS IT A DECISION, DO WE KNOW, ON THE PRESIDENT’S PART?>>Reporter: BASED ON WHAT OUR SOURCES ARE TELLING US, IT WAS McALEENAN’S DECISION. HE WAS DUPSET. THEY NOTICED A CHANGE IN HIS ATTITUDE SINCE THE INTERVIEW. WE SHOULD NOTE, HE HAS HAD A TROUBLED TIME IN THIS JOB. THERE WAS ONE TIME BASED ON CNN REPORTING HE CAME CLOSE TO RESIGNING OVER THE SUMMER BECAUSE HE DIDN’T FEEL LIKE HE EVER HAD CONTROL OVER THE DEPARTMENT, OVER HIS SUBORDINATES. YOU NOTICE THERE WAS THTHAT PUR DHS OFFICIALS. WHAT WE WERE TOLD, HE DIDN’T FEEL LIKE HE HAD CONTROL OVER THAT. HE THOUGHT PEOPLE LIKE STEVEN MULLER HAD TOO MUCH SAY IN WHO WAS DOING WHAT AT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY. THE BIG PICTURE HERE THOUGH FOR PEOPLE AT HOME IS THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY HAS ESSENTIALLY BEEN IN A POINT OF TURMOIL FOR SOME TIME NOW. THEY HAVE HAD A COMPLETE ROTATION IN NOT ONLY THE DHS LEADERSHIP BUT ALSO CPP, OTHER POSITIONS IN DHS UNDER THAT UMBRELLA OF DHS. DEPENDING ON WHO THE PRESIDENT PICKS, THAT WILL BE A BIG QUESTION. THE PEOPLE HE LIKED IN THE PAST, REPUBLICANS HAVE SAID ARE PEOPLE WHO DON’T HAVE A CHANCE OF GETTING CONFIRMED.>>KAITLAN COLLINS, THANKS. NICK MUROFF INTERVIEWED HIM FOR THE STORY TEN DAYS AGO JOINS US NOW. THANKS FOR BEING WITH US. FIRST OF ALL, WERE YOU SURPRISED TO HEAR McALEENAN’S LEAVING? DO YOU KNOW MORE DETAILS ABOUT FOR SURE WAS IT HIS DECISION?>>YES, I THINK THIS WAS HIS DECISION. I MEAN, I GOT SIGNS OF THAT WHEN I SPOKE TO HIM. I GOT THE IMPRESSION THIS HAS BEEN COMING FOR A WHILE, PARTICULARLY AS HE HAS FELT MORE FRUSTRATED AND SOMEWHAT ISOLATED IN HIS ROLE THERE AS ACTING SECRETARY. HE HAS BEEN ACTING SECRETARY NOW FOR SIX MONTHS. HE HAS DONE EVERYTHING THAT THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE PRESIDENT HAS ASKED OF HIM. DELIVERED ON THE ONE THING THAT MATTERED MOST TO TRUMP, DRIVING DOWN THE BORDER NUMBERS AND GETTING THE CRISIS UNDER CONTROL. AT THE SAME TIME, THE MESSAGES — THE MESSAGING COMING OUT OF THE ADMINISTRATION, THE RHETORIC ON ENFORCEMENT WAS AT ODDS WITH HIS MORE KIND OF MODERATE APPROACH TO THIS STUFF AND THE LANGUAGE THAT HE IS MORE COMFORTABLE WITH.>>IT’S REMARKABLE WHEN YOU STEP BACK AND LOOK AT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO — WHOSE JOB WAS TO EXECUTE THE POLICY THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN PUSHING, ALONG WITH STEPHEN MILLER AND OTHERS. THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY ON THE GROUND HAVING TO KIND OF EXECUTE IT, THEY END UP LEAVING. I DON’T KNOW. I GUESS THAT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT THE POLICY ITSELF AT A CERTAIN POINT.>>I MEAN, THIS IS AN INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT JOB. I CAN TELL YOU THAT HE HAS BEEN GOING NONSTOP EVER SINCE HE HAS GOT THIS. I CAN’T REMEMBER EVER SEEING SOMEBODY WORKING QUITE THAT HARD AND FACING SO MANY DIFFERENT DIFFICULT CHALLENGES. HE WAS THE COMMISSIONER OF CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION BEFORE THIS. HE WAS DEALING WITH THINGS LIKE THE DEATHS OF THOSE CHILDREN IN CUSTODY, ALL THE CRITICISM THAT HE HAS FACED REALLY FROM — ESPECIALLY FROM DEMOCRATS BUT ALSO FROM THE HARD LLINERS AROU THE PRESIDENT WHO DOUBTED HIS CREDENTIALS AND CONTINUED TO WHISPER TO THE PRESIDENT THAT HE WAS AN OBAMA GUY AND WASN’T REALLY TOUGH ENOUGH. OVER THE PAST SIX MONTHS, WE HAVE SEEN HIM IMPLEMENT SOME PRETTY — SOME CONTENTIOUS POLICIES THAT HAVE, IN FACT, REALLY TIGHTENED THINGS UP AT THE BORDER.>>I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.>>>MORE ON THE WHITE HOUSE. FOR THE SECOND DAY IN A ROW PRESIDENT TRUMP CLAIMS HE DOESN’T KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS A POTENTIAL THREAT TO HIM. ON THURSDAY, IT WAS RUDY GIULIANI’S CLIENTS CHARGED WITH CAMPAIGN FINANCE VIOLATIONS. TODAY, IT’S MARIE YOVANOVITCH, A WOMAN WITH 33 YEARS OF SERVICE TO THE UNITED STATES UNDER SIX PRESIDENTS WHO HAS TESTIFIED. LISTEN TO WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID ABOUT THE AMBASSADOR WHOSE CAREER HE DESTROYED. AS YOU LISTEN TO THIS, SEE IF YOU CAN CATCH THE INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS LIE IN THE PRESIDENT’S STATEMENT.>>SHE MAY BE A WONDERFUL WOMAN. I DON’T KNOW HER. BUT SHE MAY BE VERY MUCH A WONDERFUL WOMAN. IF YOU REMEMBER THE PHONE CALL I HAD WITH THE PRESIDENT, THE NEW PRESIDENT, HE DIDN’T SPEAK FAVORABLY. I JUST DON’T KNOW HER. SHE MAY BE A WONDERFUL WOMAN.>>DON’T KNOW HER. MAYBE WONDERFUL WOMAN. I DESTROYED HER CAREER. WHAT’S INCREDIBLE ABOUT THAT STATEMENT IS THAT THIS PRESIDENT CANNOT EVEN ATTEMPT A SIMPLE CLEANUP EXCUSE WITHOUT LYING. HE SPOKE FIVE SENTENCES THERE. THERE WAS, BESIDES THE I DON’T KNOW HER, THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE BIG LIE IN THERE THAT’S VERY OBVIOUS. PRESIDENT TRUMP CLAIMED THE NEW UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT DIDN’T SPEAK FAVORABLY ABOUT THE AMBASSADOR IN THAT PHONE CALL. THE PROBLEM IS, IT’S IN THE TRANSCRIPT AND IT WASN’T UKRAINE’S PRESIDENT WHO DIDN’T SPEAK FAVORABLY OF THE AMBASSADOR. IT WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP. HERE HE IS FROM THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE JULY 25th CALL. QUOTE, THE FORMER AMBASSADOR FROM THE UNITED STATES, THE WOMAN WAS BAD NEWS AND THE PEOPLE SHE WAS DEALING WITH IN THE UKRAINE WERE BAD NEWS. I JUST WANT TO LET YOU KNOW THAT. THAT’S THE PRESIDENT TALKING TO THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT. HE SEEMED TO REMEMBER HER MORE THAN TWO MONTHS AGO. TODAY SHE CERTAINLY REMEMBERED HIM IN HER OPENING STATEMENT DURING TODAY’S CLOSED DOOR HEARING. YOVANOVITCH SAID SHE WAS RECALLED FROM UKRAINE AFTER, QUOTE, A CONCERTED CAMPAIGN AGAINST ME. SHE SAID THE DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE TOLD HER SHE HAD DONE NOTHING WRONG BUT THE PRESIDENT HAD, QUOTE, LOST CONFIDENCE IN ME AND THE DEPARTMENT HAD BEEN UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE PRESIDENT, UNQUOTE TO REMOVE HER. SHE SAID THIS OF RUDY GIULIANI AND THE TWO MEN ARRESTED YESTERDAY. QUOTE, I DO NOT KNOW MR. GIULIANI’S MOTIVES FOR ATTACKING ME. BUT INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN NAMED IN THE PRESS AS CONTACTS OF MR. GIULIANI MAY WELL HAVE BELIEVED THEIR PERSONAL FINANCIAL AMBITIONS WERE STYMIED BY OUR ANTI-CORRUPTION POLICY IN UKRAINE. SHE ACTUALLY WAS EXECUTING AN ANTI-CORRUPTION POLICY, WHICH IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT CLAIMS HE WAS REALLY INTERESTED IN WHEN HE ASKED THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT TO GO AFTER THE BIDENS. MANU RAJU JOINS US FROM CAPITOL HILL. TALK TO ME ABOUT THE AMBASSADOR’S DEPOSITION TODAY. WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT WHAT SHE SAID?>>SHE JUST ACTUALLY LEFT, ANDERSON, AFTER BEING HERE NEARLY TEN HOURS, INCLUDING MOST OF THAT TIME BEHIND CLOSED DOORS GETTING GRILLED BY LAWMAKERS AND DELIVERING THAT EYE-POPPING OPENING STATEMENT. THE STATEMENT IS WHAT DROVE A LOT OF THE CONVERSATION INTERNALLY. PROBABLY DROVE MOST OF THE NEWS OF WHAT CAME OUT OF THERE. DEMOCRATS ARE EMERGING, CALLING THIS A REALLY STUNNING SERIES OF COMMENTS THAT THIS FORMER AMBASSADOR MADE CALLING IT A GRIPPING AND PERSONAL ACCOUNT OF A PRESIDENTIAL ABUSE OF POWER. ONE DEMOCRAT PUT IT. SEVERAL HAVE SAID THE PRESIDENT SOUGHT TO THROW HER TO THE WOLVES OF SORTS AND AN EFFORT TO CLEAR HER OUT OF THE WAY SO RUDY — RUDY GIULIANI WAS TRYING TO PUSH THE INVESTIGATION INTO THE BIDENS. IN THE VIEWS OF DEMOCRATS AND HOW SHE CHARACTERIZED IT, HELPED GIULIANI’S ASSOCIATES’ BOTTOM LINE. THAT WAS THE TAKEAWAY FROM THE DEMOCRATS FROM THIS CLOSED DOOR TESTIMONY. REPUBLICANS ALSO JUST CAME OUT AND THEY SHARPLY CRITICIZED THE PROCESS. THEY SAID THE PROCESS WAS NOT FAIR. THEY SAID IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TRANSPARENT. THIS SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. CRITICIZING ADAM SCHIFF. WHEN I ASKED ABOUT THE SUBSTANCE OF THE ALLEGATIONS LAID OUT IN THIS TESTIMONY, MOST OF THE REPUBLICANS WOULD SAY, WE CAN’T TALK ABOUT THIS BECAUSE IT IS CLASSIFIED. ACCORDING TO THE RULES, THESE ARE SECRET RULES. WE’RE NOT ALLOWED TO WEIGH IN SOME OF THE ALLEGATIONS. THE ALLEGATIONS THAT SHE WAS DISLOYAL TO THIS PRESIDENT IS ONE REASON WHY THAT PUSH WAS THERE TO GET HER OUT OF THE JOB. I ASKED THE REPUBLICANS WHETHER SHE QUAYLED ANY CONCERNS THAT SHE SAID SHE WAS NOT DISLOYAL TO THE PRESIDENT. WAS THAT OKAY TO SATISFY THE REPUBLICANS? THEY WOULD NOT WEIGH IN ON THAT EITHER. YOU ARE HEARING THE NARRATIVES COME OUT OF THAT. REPUBLICANS ARGUE ON THE PROCESS. DEMOCRATS SAYING THIS IS SIGNIFICANT AND COULD FURTHER THEIR IMPEACHMENT PUSH.>>THANKS VERY MUCH.>>>JOINING US IS TOM MALINOWSKI WHO SITS ON THE COMMITTEE. THE AMBASSADOR TESTIFIED THERE HAD BEEN WHAT SHE CALLED A CONCERTED CAMPAIGN AGAINST HER AND THAT THE PRESIDENT WANTED HER REMOVED BECAUSE OF, QUOTE, UNFOUNDED AND FALSE CLAIMS ABOUT HER. I KNOW THERE’S ONLY SO MUCH YOU CAN SAY. I’M WONDERING IN YOUR OPINION, WAS SHE FORTHCOMING? IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN SAY ABOUT THAT?>>SHE WAS VERY FORTHCOMING. THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY IS THAT IT’S REALLY SIGNIFICANT THAT SHE WAS THERE. WHA WHAT HER PRESENCE SAYS IS IT IS NOT ONLY NECESSARY TO OBEY LEGALLY BINDING SUBPOENAS, BUT IT’S POSSIBLE IF YOU ARE A CAREER FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICER OR CIVIL SERVANT IN THIS GOVERNMENT, IT’S POSSIBLE DESPITE THE EFFORTS OF THIS WHITE HOUSE TO STOP CAREER EMPLOYEES FROM SPEAKING TO THE CONGRESS. THAT’S AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE. SHE’S SETTING AN EXAMPLE FOR EVERYBODY ELSE. ON THE SUBSTANCE, I CAN’T TALK ABOUT WHAT SHE SAID. LOOK, WE KNOW — WE ALREADY KNOW A GREAT DEAL. SO JUST FROM WHAT WE PUBLICALLY KNOW, WHAT’S CLEAR TO ME IS THAT THIS WAS AN AMBASSADOR OF GREAT INTEGRITY WHO WAS ADVANCING OUR OFFICIAL POLICY IN UKRAINE, FIGHTING CORRUPTION. THERE WERE A BUNCH OF CROOKED UKRAINIANS WHO WANTED TO GET HER OUT OF THE WAY BECAUSE SHE WAS THREATENING THEM. AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAD RUDY GIULIANI ADVANCING A SHADOW FOREIGN POLICY ON BEHALF OF THE PRESIDENT. HE ALSO WANTED TO GET HER OUT OF THE WAY BECAUSE SHE WAS STANDING IN THE WAY OF THAT. SO ALL THESE PEOPLE FOUND EACH OTHER. THE CROOKED UKRAINIANS, GIULIANI AND HIS ASSOCIATES, THEY FOUND COMMON CAUSE IN GETTING RID OF A PATRIOTIC AMERICAN DIPLOMAT.>>WHAT’S SO INTERESTING IS THAT OFFICIAL U.S. POLICY IN UKRAINE WAS AN ANTI-CORRUPTION EFFORT. IT SEEMS LIKE FROM EVERYBODY I HAVE TALKED TO ABOUT THIS AMBASSADOR, IS THAT SHE ACTUALLY WAS EXECUTING AN ANTI-CORRUPTION POLICY WHICH IS WHAT EARNED HER THE IRE OF SOME OF THESE UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS. THE IDEA THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT ANTI-CORRUPTION, IT JUST DOESN’T HOLD WATER.>>IT DOESN’T. SHE WAS ADVANCING AN ANTI-CORRUPTION POLICY. THERE WERE AT LEAST A DOZEN PARTS OF THAT, ALL KINDS HE REFORMS THAT SHE AND THE STATE DEPARTMENT WERE URGING THE UKRAINIANS TO TAKE TO THEIR ANTI-CORRUPTION COURT TO STRENGTHEN ALL THEIR INSTITUTIONS THAT WERE FIGHTING CORRUPTION, TO FIRE ANOTHER CROOKED PROSECUTOR WHO IS STILL IN PLACE IN UKRAINE. MEANWHILE, YEAH, THE PRESIDENT SAYS NOW THAT WE HELD UP THIS AID BECAUSE WE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT CORRUPTION. PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT THEY NEVER ACTUALLY THEN TOLD THE UKRAINIANS, HERE ARE THE THREE OR FIVE OR TEN STEPS THAT YOU NEED TO TAKE TO CLEAN UP YOUR CORRUPTION ACT TO GET THE AID. ALL THEY SAID WAS, INVESTIGATE JOE BIDEN AND CONFIRM SOME WACKY CONSPIRACY THEORY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN 2016. IT TOTALLY DOESN’T HOLD WATER.>>IS IT CLEAR TO YOU — AGAIN, MAYBE — I DON’T KNOW IF SHE SPOKE TO THIS OR IF YOU KNOW OR DON’T KNOW. IS IT CLEAR ABOUT RUDY GIULIANI’S MOTIVES IN THIS? OBVIOUSLY, HE IS WORKING ON THE BEHEST OF THE PRESIDENT FOR — AS THE PRESIDENT’S ATTORNEY. HE ALSO IN MANY PLACES SEEMS TO HAVE FINANCIAL DEALINGS WITH — WE KNOW THESE TWO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW UNDER ARREST. IS IT KNOWN IF HE HAD FINANCIAL DEALINGS IN UKRAINE OR FINANCIAL CONNECTIONS, FINANCIAL INTERESTS?>>HE CERTAINLY SEEMS TO HAVE HAD FINANCIAL INTERESTS IN UKRAINE. I THINK THERE’S PROBABLY MUCH MORE THAT WE CAN LEARN ABOUT THAT. I THINK HE PROBABLY HAD MULTIPLE MOTIVATIONS. THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW IS THAT HE WAS PURPORTING TO REPRESENT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN A SHADOW FOREIGN POLICY THAT COMPLETELY CONTRADICTED THE OFFICIAL FOREIGN POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES. WHICH WAS FIGHTING CORRUPTION AND SUPPORTING UKRAINE IN DEFENDING THEIR TERRITORY AGAINST RUSSIA.>>THE FACT THAT THE WHITE HOUSE AND STATE DEPARTMENT ACCORDING TO THREE DEMOCRATIC COMMITTEE CHAIRS DIRECTED YOVANOVITCH NOT TO TESTIFY TODAY, BUT SHE COMPLIED ANYWAY WITH A SUBPOENA, IS THAT THE WAY THE HOUSE COMMITTEE WORK AROUND THE ADMINISTRATION? IS THAT HOW THEY ARE TRYING TO BLOCK WITNESSES? I KNOW YOU SAID THIS SENDS A MESSAGE. DO YOU THINK HER TESTIMONY ENCOURAGES OTHER CAREER OFFICERS, CAREER EMPLOYEES THAT THEY, TOO, CAN COME FORWARD?>>ANDERSON, I BELIEVE IT DOES. I THINK SHE’S SETTING AN EXAMPLE OF COURAGE AND INTEGRITY UNDER GREAT PRESSURE. YOU KNOW, THAT EXAMPLE IS IF THERE IS A LEGALLY BINDING SUBPOENA, THEN YOU HAVE A DUTY TO SHOW UP. THIS IS — WE ARE A RULE OF LAW COUNTRY. I THINK ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT AMBASSADOR YOVANOVITCH, SHE SPENT 30 YEARS REPRESENTING US AROUND THE WORLD, FIGHTING FOR THE RULE OF LAW. SHE CAME BACK HOME AND SHE IS ABIDING BY THE RULE OF LAW RIGHT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES. I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT, THROUGHOUT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT WHO WILL SEE THIS AS AN EXAMPLE, A GOOD EXAMPLE TO FOLLOW. IT CAN BE DONE.>>JUST FINALLY, I’M NOT SURE YOU MAY HAVE BEEN IN THE MEETING, YOU MAY NOT HAVE HEARD, THE PRESIDENT’S LATEST COMMENTS. THE PRESIDENT SAID HE DOESN’T KNOW HER, THAT MAYBE SHE’S A GREAT WOMAN, BUT THAT THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT IN HIS PHONE CONVERSATION SPOKE — SAID NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT HER. WHICH IS A COMPLETE LIE, WE KNOW, FROM THE TRANSCRIPT. IT WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING BAD THINGS ABOUT HER. I GUESS THAT SHOULDN’T COME AS A SURPRISE THAT HE IS LYING IN JUST FIVE SENTENCES. IT STRIKES ME AS AMAZING THAT HE LIES ABOUT STUFF THAT WE CAN READ IN A TRANSCRIPT THAT’S NOT EVEN A COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT.>>YOU KNOW, EVERY DAY HE MAKES IT HARDER FOR HIS DEFENDERS TO DEFEND HIM. I THINK THIS IS GETTING HARDER FOR SOME OF MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES, WHO SEE THIS CHAOS, WHO SEE AN INDEFENSIBLE POLICY AND WHATEVER THEY ARE TELLING YOU PUBLICALLY, I KNOW THAT A LOT OF THEM ARE PRIVATELY THINKING, DO I WANT TO DEFEND THIS FOR ANOTHER SIX YEARS?>>CONGRESSMAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.>>THANK YOU.>>>MORE TO COME, INCLUDING WHITE HOUSE REACTION TO A BAD DAY IN COURT. WE WILL COUNT UP ALL THE BIG CASES THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, THE WHITE HOUSE LOSS TODAY. THERE’S A NUMBER OF THEM.>>>IS RUDY GIULIANI STILL TRUMP’S ATTORNEY? MORE AHEAD.>>>MORE BREAKING NEWS ON RUDY GIULIANI AND QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS STATUS OF THE PERSONAL ATTORNEY AND FIXER FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP. TWO OF GIULIANI’S ASSOCIATES WITH WHOM HE WORKED ON ISSUES INVOLVING UKRAINE HAVE BEEN ARRESTED ON CAMPAIGN FINANCE VIOLATIONS. SOURCES TELL CNN GIULIANI’S OWN FINANCIAL DEALINGS WITH THE MEN ARE UNDER SCRUTINY AS WELL. THE QUESTION IS GIULIANI STILL THE PRESIDENT’S ATTORNEY OR IS THE PRESIDENT DISTANCING HIMSELF JUST AS HE HAS DONE WITH MICHAEL COHEN AND SO MANY OTHERS? HERE IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID ON THAT TODAY.>>I DON’T KNOW. I HAVEN’T SPOKEN TO RUDY. I SPOKE TO HIM YESTERDAY BRIEFLY. HE IS A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY AND HE HAS BEEN MY ATTORNEY, YEAH, SURE.>>PAMELA BROWN JOINS US NOW. PAMELA, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT ANSWER? IT SEEMS LIKE THE DISTANCING IS BEGINNING.>>Reporter: YEAH. I THINK YOU ARE SEEING BOTH OF WHAT YOU MENTIONED, HE IS STILL HIS PERSONAL ATTORNEY BUT THE PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO DISTANCE HIMSELF. A SOURCE TELLS ME TONIGHT THAT WHILE HE IS STILL HIS ATTORNEY, HE WILL BE SIDELINED ON LEGAL MATTERS INVOLVING UKRAINE. I WAS ACTUALLY THE ONE THAT TALKED TO THE PRESIDENT, ASKED HIM WHETHER GIULIANI WAS STILL HIS PERSONAL ATTORNEY. HIS FIRST WORDS OUT OF THE GATE WERE, I DON’T KNOW. I HAVEN’T SPOKEN TO RUDY. AS WE HEARD, HE SAID, I SPOKE TO HIM BRIEFLY YESTERDAY. HE IS A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY. HE HAS BEEN MY ATTORNEY. WE HAVE SEEN THIS IN THE PAST WITH THE PRESIDENT’S FORMER PERSONAL ATTORNEY MICHAEL COHEN. WE DID REACH OUT TO GIULIANI TO GET COMMENT ON THIS. HE SAYS HE IS STILL THE PRESIDENT’S LAWYER AND THAT THERE ARE NO UKRAINE ISSUES, WHICH HE SAYS HE FINISHED IN MARCH. OF COURSE, ANDERSON, UKRAINE IS AT THE HEART OF THE DEMOCRATS’ IMPEACHMENT PROBE AFTER IT WAS REVEALED THE PRESIDENT ASKED UKRAINE’S PRESIDENT TO INVESTIGATE HIS POLITICAL RIVAL. IT’S GIULIANI INVOLVED WITH THIS EFFORT TO DIG UP DIRT ON BIDEN AND TWO OF HIS ASSOCIATES AS WE KNOW HELPED WITH THAT EFFORT. THEY WERE JUST INDICTED ON CAMPAIGN FINANCE CHARGES JUST YESTERDAY. MY COLLEAGUE KAITLAN COLLINS IS REPORTING TONIGHT THAT IN THE WAKE OF THAT, TRUMP HAS BEEN PRIVATELY EXPRESSING CONCERNS ABOUT GIULIANI’S INVOLVEMENT WITH THOSE TWO MEN AND DOUBTS AS WELL. IF YOU HEARD WHAT HE SAID TODAY THAT YOU JUST PLAYED, THAT WASN’T A RINGING ENDORSEMENT OF HIS PERSONAL ATTORNEY.>>FOR A MOMENT I THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO SAY, I DON’T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER THAT. IT WAS JUST I DON’T KNOW. WE WILL SEE. PAMELA BROWN, THANKS VERY MUCH.>>>JOINING US TO DISCUSS THIS, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTE HE JEFFREY TOOBIN, “NEW YORK TIMES” WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT MAGGIE HAVER AND DAVID GERGEN. GIULIANI SAYS HE IS THE PRESIDENT’S LAWYER AND THERE’S NO UKRAINE ISSUES BUT HE WILL NOT DEAL WITH ANYTHING UKRAINE RELATED. HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THIS?>>JUST TO TALK ABOUT THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK OF ALL THIS, WHICH IS THAT LAWYERS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ALSO BE WITNESSES IN THE SAME CASE. IF YOU ARE A WITNESS IN A CASE OR IN AN INVESTIGATION, YOU CAN’T REPRESENT ANYONE IN THAT CASE. IT’S COMMON SENSE. HERE IT’S QUITE CLEAR THAT AT MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS RUDY GIULIANI IS A WITNESS IN THE IMPEACHMENT MATTER AND VERY LIKELY A WITNESS IN THIS CASE THAT WAS BROUGHT AGAINST TWO OF HIS ASSOCIATES YESTERDAY. JUST AS A SIMPLE MATTER OF LEGAL ETHICS, PUTTING ASIDE THE QUESTION OF WHETHER HE DID ANYTHING IMPROPER, I JUST DON’T SEE THERE’S ANY WAY HE CAN STAY IN THE CASE. THE ARGUMENT THAT WAS JUST MADE THAT, WELL, HE IS STILL THE LAWYER BUT HE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH UKRAINE — UKRAINE IS THE WHOLE CASE AT THIS POINT.>>YEAH.>>I DON’T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO BE HIS LAWYER IF HE CAN’T DEAL WITH UKRAINE.>>MAGGIE, THERE’S LONGSTANDING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND RUDY GIULIANI GOING BACK TO NEW YORK DAYS. ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT THE PRESIDENT — I DON’T KNOW I SHOULDN’T SAY THE PRESIDENT HAS BEGUN TO DISTANCE HIMSELF BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT HE DOES. DO YOU SEE THIS AS DISTANCING OR JUST CONFUSION ON THE PRESIDENT’S PART OF HE’S NOT SURE WHAT THE STATUS IS?>>I THINK IT’S A LITTLE OF BOTH. I THINK HE IS DISTANCING HIMSELF. HE SEEMS TO BE DOING IT SOMEWHAT RELUCTANTLY. I’VE SEEN HIP M DO IT AND YOU HE SEEN HIM DO IT WITH MORE EASE WITH OTHER PEOPLE. HE HAS A 30-YEAR RELATIONSHIP WITH RUDY. KNOWS GIULIANI’S CHILDREN. THEY HAVE BEEN FRIENDS A LONG TIME. I THINK HE IS UNCOMFORTABLE THROWING HIM UNDER THE BUS THE SAME WAY HE HAS DONE WITH OTHER PEOPLE. I THINK HE IS NOT SURE WHERE THIS GOES. I THINK HE DOESN’T WANT TO TOSS HIM ASIDE IF THERE’S NO REASON TO. HOWEVER, WHAT WE LEARNED TODAY IS THAT GIULIANI IS BEING LOOKED AT BY THE U.S. ATTORNEY’S OFFICE FOR A POSSIBLE VIOLATION, FEDERAL REGISTERED LOBBYING AGENT. WHETHER THAT CASE ENDS UP HURTING GIULIANI REMAINS TO BE SEEN. IT’S HARD TO SEE HOW HE WOULD BE THE PRESIDENT’S LAWYER IF HE IS UNDER ACTIVE INVESTIGATION. I THINK THE OTHER POINT I WOULD MAKE QUICKLY, RUDY GIULIANI IS THE TELEVISION FACE FOR THIS PRESIDENT FOR A LONG TIME. THERE’S A COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO GO ON TV FROM THE WHITE HOUSE. GIULIANI HAS BEEN ALL OVER THE PLACE FOR THE PRESIDENT. IF HE IS NOT OUT THERE FIGHTING FOR THE PRESIDENT ON TV, THAT’S SOMETHING THE PRESIDENT VALUES AS MUCH AS ANYTHING.>>DAVID, WHEN YOU CONSIDER TWO GIULIANI’S CLIENTS WERE ARRESTED, CHARGED FOR VIOLATING CAMPAIGN FINANCE LAWS, HOW MUCH WOULD PRESIDENT TRUMP HAVE KNOWN ABOUT ANY OF THIS? I GUESS THERE’S NO WAY AT THIS POINT TO KNOW. IT SEEMS TO BE A TANGLED WEB.>>IT SURE DOES. I THINK WITH REGARD TO G GIULIANI’S FUTURE, THE OPERATIVE WORDS WERE HE HAS BEEN MY ATTORNEY. IN THE PAST TENSE. I THINK THAT’S — I THINK HE IS HEADING TOWARD THE EXIT. I THINK THE WHITE HOUSE FEELS HE HAS BEEN OUT A LOT ON TELEVISION BUT HE IS NOT EFFECTIVE. IF ANYTHING, HE ROUSE PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE. HE IS THE — WHEN YOU GET INTO THIS UKRAINIAN THING, HE IS THE CENTRAL PLAYER IN THE EPISODE WITH UKRAINE. HE IS THE PRESIDENT’S GUY TO GET THIS DONE. I DON’T SEE HOW HE CAN GO FORWARD WITHOUT APPEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEES ON THE HILL. THEY WILL WANT HIM. THE WHITE HOUSE IS NOT GOING TO WANT TO HAVE THIS GUY OUT BEING THEIR SPOKESPERSON AT THE TIME HE IS BEING GRILLED AND THEY FIND MORE THINGS ON HIM. WHO WOULD HAVE EXPECTED THESE TWO SLEAZY GUYS TO BE HANGING AROUND AND THEN WHO WOULD HAVE EXPECTED TO SEE DON JUNIOR IN SOME BAR WITH THEM SOMEWHERE? THAT ALONE TELLS YOU THAT THE PR PRESIDENT’S FAMILY KNEW THESE GUYS.>>IT SURPRISES YOU GIULIANI IS HANGING AROUND WITH TWO POTENTIALLY SLEAZY GUYS?>>IT DOESN’T SURPRISE ME THAT HE HANGS AROUND WITH THEM. WHAT SURPRISES ME IS HE DOES IT PUBLICALLY.>>AND THEY WERE GOING TO BE IN SVIENNA TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME.>>>STAY WITH ME. A BIG WEEK COMING UP. MORE UKRAINE TESTIMONY EXPECTED. WHAT WILL IT MEAN FOR THE PRESIDENT>>>IN CASE YOU ARE JUST TUNING IN, A SOURCE CLOSE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP’S LEGAL TEAM TELLS CNN GIULIANI IS STILL THE PRESIDENT’S ATTORNEY. THE PRESIDENT SEEMED TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM GIULIANI THIS AFTERNOON. IT WAS ON THE SAME DAY THE PRESIDENT’S FORMER AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE SAID HE WAS HOLLOWING OUT THE STATE DEPARTMENT, TURNING IT INTO A VEHICLE FOR HIS OWN POLITICAL ENDS. MAGGIE, IN TERMS — WE ONLY HAVE SEEN SOME OF THE OPENING STATEMENT OF THE AMBASSADOR. CERTAINLY FOR A CAREER FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICER TO COME FORWARD, THOUGH UNDER A SUBPOENA AND TESTIFY, THAT CERTAINLY IS A BREAK IN THE WALL THAT THE WHITE HOUSE HOPED TO SET UP TO STOP PEOPLE FROM TAKING PART IN THIS.>>I’M SORRY, WAS THAT TO ME?>>YEAH. THAT WAS TO YOU.>>I’M SORRY. THE AMBASSADOR WHO TESTIFIED TODAY WAS A BREAK IN THE WALL WAS YOUR QUESTION?>>YEAH. THE FACT THAT SHE CAME FORWARD EVEN THOUGH POMPEO HAD SAID THAT THEY WOULDN’T BE COOPERATING. >>YEAH. IT’S NOTICEABLE, I THINK, THAT YOU ARE SEEING THE BEGINNING OF A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING NOT JUST TO SPEAK OUT PUBLICALLY OR AT LEAST TO SPEAK OUT PRIVATELY THROUGH NEWS ACCOUNTS AND HAVE THEIR VIEWS BE KNOWN BUT AS YOU NOTE, GO MEET WITH MEMBERS ON THE HILL. WE HAVE SEEN SOME PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION IN PREVIOUS INVESTIGATIONS LIKE HOPE HICKS GO AND GIVE SOME VERY LIMITED TESTIMONY WITH LAWYERS FROM THE ADMINISTRATION WITH HER. THIS FEELS DIFFERENT. THE STATEMENTS YOU SAW TODAY ON THE HILL AND WHAT WE ANTICIPATE WE MIGHT HEAR FROM AMBASSADOR SONDLAND NEXT WEEK GETS US INTO DANGEROUS TERRITORY POTENTIALLY FOR WHITE HOUSE. >>SHE WAS TESTIFYING FOR TEN HOURS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. >>IT WAS AMAZING. FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO STEP BACK A BIT. IT’S WORTH REMEMBERING THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CAN CHANGE AMBASSADORS AND PUT HIS OWN PERSON IN PLACE IF HE IS NOT HAPPY WITH THE ONE WHO IS THERE. THERE’S A CODE OF CONDUCT THAT GOES WITH THAT. SECRETARIES OF STATE TRY TO HONOR. THAT IS, YOU WANT TO CULTIVATE YOUR PUBLIC SERVANTS AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT, FOREIGN SERVICE OFFICERS, HE WANT TO GROW THEM, LET THEM HAVE EMBASSIES. THAT’S HOW YOU GET TALENTED PEOPLE TO COME IN. TO TURN ON THEM FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL GAIN TO PUT A KNIFE IN HER BACK AND END HER CAREER FOR HIS OWN PERSONAL POLITICAL GAIN IS A DEEP VIOLATION OF THAT CODE OF HONOR, THAT CODE OF CONDUCT. I THINK THAT IS — WHAT I THINK WE’RE INCREASINGLY SEEING, TO BUILD ON WHAT MAGGIE WAS SAYING, IS ACROSS THE GOVERNMENT WE HAVE BEEN ASKING, WHEN ARE THE REPUBLICANS GOING TO START TO COME OVER AND SEE THINGS IN A DIFFERENT LIGHT, WHAT’S REALLY INTERESTING IS THE CIVIL SERVICE AND PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING WHETHER THIS IS AN ENVIRONMENT, OR HOMELAND SECURITY OR STATE DEPARTMENT, THEY ARE ALL COMING OUT AND BEGINNING TO SPEAK OUT AGAIN THIS ADMINISTRATION. TO VENT THEIR FRUSTRATION AND DISAGREEMENT WITH THE FUNDAMENTAL POLICIES. I THINK OVER TIME THAT’S GOING TO HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT ON THIS IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING.>>IF I CAN JUST ADD ONE POINT. WE HAD THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT WHEN THE PRESIDENT FIRED JAMES COMEY. THE PRESIDENT HAD THE RIGHT TO FIRE COMEY. HE WAS A PRESIDENTIAL EMPLOYEE. THE QUESTION IS, COULD HE DO IT FOR A CORRUPT PURPOSE TO INFLUENCE THE INVESTIGATION? IT’S A VERY SIMILAR SITUATION HERE. AS DAVID SAID, THE PRESIDENT DOES HAVE THE RIGHT TO RECALL AN AMBASSADOR. BUT WHY? WHO WHAT WAS THE REASON? THE ONLY REASON THAT APPEARS TO BE IN PLAY IS THAT SHE WOULDN’T PARTICIPATE IN GATHERING DIRT ON JOE BIDEN, WHICH IS ILLEGITIMATE AND CORRUPT.>>ALSO, JEFF, FOR THE PRESIDENT’S WHOLE EXCUSE ON ALL OF THIS IS THAT HE WAS — IN THAT PHONE CONVERSATION THAT HE WAS INTERESTED IN FIGHTING CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE AND MAKING SURE THAT THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE WAS DOING THAT AS WELL. JOE BIDEN SOMEHOW AND HUNTER BIDEN WERE THE EXEMPLARS. IT WAS VERY CLEAR, SHE HAD AN ENTIRE PROGRAM P PLACE OF ANTI-CORRUPTION. THAT SEEMED TO BE A MAJOR FOCUS OF LEGITIMATE U.S. FOREIGN POLICY AND THE PRESIDENT REMOVED THE PERSON WHO WAS DOING THAT.>>THE ONLY CORRUPTION THE PRESIDENT HAS SHOWN INTEREST IN IS JOE BIDEN’S FAMILY. OF COURSE, IT REMAINS TO BE — >>THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.>>THE POINT — THE PRESIDENT SAYS, I WANTED CORRUPTION INVESTIGATED. HE DIDN’T WANT CORRUPTION INVESTIGATED. HE WANTED BIDEN INVESTIGATED. THAT WAS THE SOURCE IT APPEARS OF A CONFLICT WITH THE AMBASSADOR. THAT’S WHY SHE GOT FIRED.>>JEFF, DAVID, MAGGIE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. YOU MAY NEED YOUR WHOLE HAND TO COUNT HOW MANY COURT CASES THE PRESIDENT AND HIS ADMINISTRATION LOST TODAY. ARE DEMOCRATS WITHIN REACH OF HIS >>>THE BACKGROUND OF TONIGHT’S BREAKING NEWS, THE RESIGNATION OF THE ACTING HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY AND PRESIDENT TRUMP DISTANCING HIMSELF FROM GIULIANI. NEXT YEAR’S ELECTIONS LOOM LARGE. ONE OF THE STATES PRESIDENT TRUMP NEEDS TO WIN IS WISCONSIN WHERE HE BARELY DEFEATED CLINTON IN 2016 BY A LITTLE MORE THAN 22,000 VOTES. WE ASKED RANDI KAYE TO GATHER NINE INDEPENDENT VOTERS AND ASK THEM AT THIS POINT IN THE CAMPAIGN ABOUT THE PRESIDENT AND THE IMPEACH MMENT INVESTIGATION. ONE VOTED FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP IN 2016, FOUR FOR CLINTON, TWO DIDN’T VOTE AND TWO WROTE IN OTHER CANDIDATES.>>Reporter: DO YOU THINK AN IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY IS APPROPRIATE?>>YES.>>DEFINITELY APPROPRIATE.>>Reporter: ALL OF YOU AGREE IT’S APPROPRIATE?>>YES.>>I’M WITNESSING THIS PRESIDENT GO OUT THERE AND DO THINGS THAT ARE CLEARLY FOLLOWING WHAT’S IN THE CONSTITUTION ABOUT IMPEACHMENT, HIGH CREIMES AND MISDEMEANORS.>>Reporter: YOU LEAN RIGHT. YOU ARE OKAY WITH THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY?>>ABSOLUTELY. I ALSO FEEL LIKE WE NEED TO FOLLOW THE RULE OF LAW. IF SOMETHING SMELLS BAD, WE NEED TO INVESTIGATE IT.>>Reporter: WHY ARE SOME OF YOU CONVINCED THIS CALL SOUNDED LIKE A QUID PRO QUO. >>THEY PUT THE $319 MILLION ON HOLD DAYS BEFORE. WHAT KIND OF A SIGNAL IS THAT? IT WASN’T ON HOLD FOR TWO MONTHS. THIS WAS DAYS BEFORE.>>WE ARE LOOKING TO BUY MORE JAVELINS. DO ME A FAVOR. IT’S RIGHT THERE. IT’S IN THE PRIMARY SOURCE RELEASED BY THE WHITE HOUSE. YOU READ IT WORD FOR WORD. TO ME, I’M NOT A LAWYER, I’M NOT A MOBSTER, TO ME IT LOOKS LIKE A QUID PRO QUO.>>Reporter: WHY IS OUR PRESIDENT ASKING A FOREIGN PRESIDENT FOR A POLITICAL FAVOR LIKE THIS? IT SEEMS SO HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE.>>I’M NOT CONVINCED THE WITH HOLDING OF AID A FEW DAYS BEFORE WE HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT THAT WAS RELATED. I THINK THAT THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE CALL IS SUSPICIOUS BUT I’M NOT YET READY TO MAKE A DECISION.>>Reporter: HOW MANY OF YOU SEE THIS PHONE CALL AND THIS ASK BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO LOOK INTO HIS POLITICAL RIVAL AS AN ABUSE OF POWER? RAISE YOUR HAND. WHAT ABOUT THE WHITE HOUSE PUTTING THAT PHONE CALL ON A CLASSIFIED SERVER?>>THE WHITE HOUSE STAFF EVEN HIS OWN STAFF SAW THIS AS YOU MIGHT HAVE DONE SOMETHING IMPEACHABLE.>>Reporter: ANOTHER CONCERN FOR THESE VOTERS, TEXT MESSAGES IN WHICH AN AMBASSADOR TRIES TO BURY ANY TALK OF QUID PRO QUO OR CONDITIONS.>>AS SOMEONE WHO WORKED IN GOVERNMENT IN YEARS PAST, WHEN YOU GET THAT MESSAGE THAT SAYS CALL ME, IT’S BECAUSE SOMEBODY DOES NOT WANT A WRITTEN RECORD OF SOMETHING.>>Reporter: ABOUT THE STATE DEPARTMENT BLOCKING SOME KEY WITNESSES FROM TESTIFYING?>>THAT TO ME IS HUGE WARNING SIGNS. I THINK THAT’S PROBLEMATIC.>>THERE’S NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT, THEN WHY HIDE ANYTHING? BE TRANSPARENT.>>Reporter: FAIR TO SAY THAT THIS INQUIRY HAS AFFECTED ALL OF YOUR THINKING WHEN IT COMES TO WHO YOU MIGHT VOTE FOR?>>ABSOLUTELY.>>YES. >>I THINK FOR ME, IT’S ONE MORE LEVEL OF DISTRUST. IF I CAN’T TRUST SOMEONE, I HAVE A HARD TIME VOTING FOR THEM.>>Reporter: IF THE PRESIDENT IS IMPEACHED BUT NOT REMOVED FROM OFFICE, HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD STILL VOTE FOR HIM? NONE OF YOU. RICH, YOU LEAN RIGHT AS WELL. EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE AN INDEPENDENT.>>CORRECT.>>Reporter: ARE YOU CONSIDERING VOTING FOR TRUMP STILL?>>NO. BECAUSE IT LOOKS KIND OF BAD.>>Reporter: KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW NOW ABOUT UKRAINE AND THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY, DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE, RAISE YOUR HAND? THREE.>>INTERESTING THAT THEY WANT THE INQUIRY TO MOVE FORWARD. THREE JUST SAY AT THIS POINT THEY BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE. I THINK WE’RE HAVING — >>Reporter: RIGHT. THEY WANT TO WAIT FOR ALL OF THE FACTS IN THIS CASE. THEY WANT TO SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT. OBVIOUSLY, THEY ARE TURNED OFF BY — YOUCAN YOU HEAR ME OKAY?>>WE HAVE A BAD DELAY.>>Reporter: THEY ARE TURNED OFF BY WHAT’S HAPPENING WITH DONALD TRUMP. THEY CERTAINLY — OKAY. THEY ARE TURNED OFF. THEY ARE WAITING FOR THE FACTS. THEY ARE TURNED OFF BY THE PRESIDENT. THEY WANT TO SEE HOW THIS IS GOING TO PLAY OUT. THEY WANT THE FULL INVESTIGATION. THEY THINK THERE’S SOMETHING FISHY HERE. THEY WANT TO SEE HOW IT GOES. THEY DON’T BUY THE PRESIDENT’S EXPLANATION OR THE WHITE HOUSE’S EXPLANATION THAT HE WAS TRYING TO JUST ROOT OUT CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE. IF YOU LOOK AHEAD TO THE ELECTION FOR 2020 AS FAR AS OUR VOTERS GO, ONE IS CONSIDERING VOTING FOR JOE BIDEN. THE OTHERS LIKE BUTTIGIEG AND WARREN AND YANG. IF DONALD TRUMP IS THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE, NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN OUR GROUP SAY THEY WILL VOTE FOR HIM.>>THANKS VERY MUCH.>>>PRESIDENT TRUMP’S BAD DAY IN COURT. LOSSES MOUNTING ON A NUMBER OF FRONTS AS DEM>>>THE PRESIDENT LIKES TO SAY HE IS WINNING, WOULD HAVE A HARD TIME CONVINCING AMERICANS OF THAT TODAY. HE ALONG WITH HIS ADMINISTRATION LOST FIVE FEDERAL COURT CASES TODAY ALONE. FOR THOSE KEEPING COUNT, THREE WERE IN NEW YORK, WASHINGTON STATE AND CALIFORNIA WHERE FEDERAL JUDGES ISSUED RULINGINGS BL THAT WOULD HAVE MADE IT EASIER FOR THE ADMINISTRATION JOINING US NOW IS FINANCE EDITOR TELL “NEW YORK TIMES.” HE’S THE AUTHOR OF DARK TOWERS, DEUTSCHE BANK, DONALD TRUMP AND AN EPIC TRAIL OF DESTRUCTION, A FASCINATING BOOK. AND STILL WITH US IS JEFFREY TOOBIN. JEFF, ON THE LEGAL FRONT, THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TWO OPTIONS WHEN IT COMES TO APPEALING THE TAX RETURN RULING, APPEALED TO THE FULL D.C. CIRCUIT COURT, WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD DO?>>I THINK THEY’RE GOING TO TRY EVERYTHING THEY CAN. AND SO I ASSUME THAT MEANS GOING TO THE D.C. CIRCUIT FIRST AND THEN THE SUPREME COURT BUT THEY’RE REALLY RUNNING OUT OF OPTIONS HERE. A THREE-JUDGE PANEL OF THE D.C. CIRCUIT, IT WAS TWO JUDGES IN FAVOR OF CONGRESS AND ONE JUDGE WHO SAID THAT THE PRESIDENT COULD WITHHOLD THE TAX RETURNS. BUT THIS IS UNLIKELY TO BE OVERTURNED AT THIS POINT. NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION. BUT THIS IS TWO REALLY BAD RULINGS IN A ROW.>>DOES CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS WANT A CASE LIKE THIS?>>I DON’T THINK THE CHIEF JUSTICE WANTS TO BE ANYWHERE NEAR THIS. THE ISSUE OF CONGRESSIONAL POWER VERSUS CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT, THERE ARE SO MANY OF THESE CASES PERCOLATING THROUGH THE COURTS NOW, IT’S HARD FOR ME TO BELIEVE THE SUPREME COURT WILL BE ABLE TO DUCK ALL OF THEM. BUT THE ONE ABOUT THE PRESIDENT’S TAX RETURNS IS SO PERSONAL THAT PERHAPS THAT’S NOT THE ONE THEY WANT TO PICK. BUT I DON’T KNOW. CERTAINLY I THINK IN THE NEXT YEAR THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE UP AT LEAST SOME OF THESE CASES.>>DAVID, IF AND WHEN CONGRESS DOES GET AHOLD OF THE TAXES, WHAT EXACTLY WOULD THEY BE ABLE TO GLEAN FROM THEM?>>IT’S HARD TO KNOW WHERE TO EVEN BEGIN WITH THAT QUESTION. THERE’S SO MUCH INFORMATION THAT POTENTIALLY COULD BE REVEALED IN THESE TAX RETURNS THAT — THESE ARE SECRETS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS SPENT THE PAST FOUR YEARS FIGHTING TOOTH AND NAIL TO KEEP SECRET. WE WOULD KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT WHERE HE HAS BEEN GETTING HIS MONEY OVER THE YEARS, FROM WHOM HE’S BEEN GETTING HIS MONEY, WHICH FOREIGN ENTITIES OR INDIVIDUALS HE’S PARTNERED WITH OVER THE YEARS, TO WHOM HE OWES MONEY AND THERE’S ALL SORTS OF INFORMATION THAT COULD COME OUT WITH DIFFERENT ENTANGLEMENTS HE HAS WITH DIFFERENT COMPANIES ALL OAF THE WORLD.>>THERE’S NO WAY — I MEAN, IF NE HAVE TO DO THAT, ACCORDING TO THE SUPREME COURT, THE PRESIDENT CAN’T ORDER THEM TO NOT DO THAT, CORRECT?>>NO, HE CAN’T. ALTHOUGH HIS LAWYERS HAVE INTERVENED IN THE CASE. HIS LAWYERS ARE NOW PART OF THE CASE INVOLVING HIS ACCOUNTANTS. AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT APPEARS TO BE LOSING IN THAT CASE AS WELL. THERE ARE LOTS OF DIFFERENT CASES PERCOLATING THROUGH THE COURTS ABOUT HIS TAX RETURNS BUT NONE OF THEM HAVE REACHED THE POINT OF FINAL RESOLUTION WHERE EITHER THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, THE IRS OR THE ACCOUNTANTS ACTUALLY HAVE TO PHYSICALLY TRANSFER THE TAX RETURNS OVER TO THE PEOPLE LOOKING FOR THEM.>>AS WE SAID, CONGRESS ISN’T LIMITING THEIR SCOPE TO THE PRESIDENT’S TAX RECORDS. THEY’RE LOOKING AT DEUTSCHE BANK RECORDS, WHICH LENT A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY TO THE PRESIDENT PLP. >>I THINK THOSE DEUTSCHE BANK RECORDS, I’M A LITTLE BIASED BECAUSE I’M OBSESSED WITH THIS BANK BUT I THINK THE DEUTSCHE BANK RECORDS HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO BE EVEN MORE INTERESTING. THE BANK SAID IT DOES NOT CURRENTLY POSSESS ITS TAX RETURNS BUT IT HAS AN ENORMOUS QUANTITY OF INFORMATION ABOUT HIS PERSONAL FINANCES, THOSE OF HIS KIDS AND THE STRUCTURE OF HIS COMPANIES AND THE BANK DID ITS DUE DILIGENCE WHEN DECIDING TO MAKE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF DONALD TRUMP AND THAT INFORMATION COULD END UP IN THE HAND OF CONGRESS.>>THE STUFF ABOUT DEUTSCHE BANK — I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU’RE OBSESSED WITH IT. IT SORT OF DEFIES WHY A BANK LOANS MONEY TO PEOPLE AND EVEN IF THAT PERSON DOESN’T PAY THEM BACK, WHY THAT BANK WOULD STILL LOAN INSTITUTION TO THAT >>>I’M ANDERSON COOPER IN FOR CHRIS CUOMO. THE FORMER AMBASSADOR OF UKRAINE WHO TESTIFIED ABOUT THE STATE DEPARTMENT BEING ATTACKED AND HOLLOWED OUT BY POLITICS MASKED DIPLOMACY. THE PRESIDENT SAID HE DID NOT KNOW THIS THREE-TIME AMBASSADOR WHO SPENT 33 YEARS IN THE FOREIGN SERVICE.>>WELL, SHE MAY BE A WONDERFUL WOMAN, I DON’T KNOW HER. SHE MAY BE VERY MUCH A WONDERFUL WOMAN. IF YOU REMEMBER THE PHONE CALL I HAD WITH THE PRESIDENT, THE NEW PRESIDENT, HE DIDN’T SPEAK FAVORABLY. BUT I JUST DON’T KNOW HER. SHE MAY BE A WONDERFUL WOMAN.>>SO JUST, YOU KNOW, FACTS MATTER, THAT’S ACTUALLY NOT TRUE WHAT HE JUST SAID. IT WASN’T THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE WHO WAS SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT THE AMBASSADOR, IT WAS ACTUALLY PRESIDENT TRUMP SPEAKING TO THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE SPEAKING UNFAVORABLY OF HER ON THAT NOW INFAMOUS JULY PHONE CALL, WHICH WOULD INDICATE HE DOES KNOW HER OR OF HER. TODAY IN HER TESTIMONY, MARIE YOVANOVITCH SAID THE PRESIDENT WAS VERY FAMILIAR WITH HER AND HER WORK IN UKRAINE AND SAID THE DEPUTY OF STATE SAID THE PRESIDENT, QUOTE, LOST CONFIDENCE IN ME AND THAT THERE HAD BEEN A CONCERTED CAMPAIGN AGAINST ME AND THE DEPARTMENT HAD BEEN UNDER PRESSURE TO REMOVE ME FROM DECEMBER OF ’18. AFTER ALMOST TEN HOURS OF TESTIMONY, WHAT ARE YOU LEARNING ABOUT THE AMBASSADOR’S DEPOSITION, PARTICULARLY WHAT SHE TOLD THE COMMISSION ABOUT RUDY GIULIANI? THIS IS BEHIND CLOSED DOORS SO INFORMATION IS HARD TO GET.>>Reporter: THAT’S RIGHT, ANDERSON. FROM WHAT WE DO KNOW OF HER DEPOSITION, SHE REALLY PAINTED TODAY FOR THE LAWMAKERS A FULLER PICTURE OF WHAT SHE BELIEVES THE ROLE OF RUDY GIULIANI WAS, THE EXTENT OF HIS ROLE, HOW HE ACCORDING TO HER ESSENTIALLY COORDINATED THIS WELL-COORDINATED STRATEGY TO SMEAR CAMPAIGN, IF YOU WILL, TO LEAD TO HER REMOVAL FROM THE POST. SHE SAID THAT AT THE TIME WHILE SHE WAS IN UKRAINE, SHE HAD HEARD FROM UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS THAT GIULIANI WAS GOING AROUND TRASHING HER, SAYING BAD THINGS ABOUT HER, MAKING BAD THINGS UP ABOUT HER BUT IT WAS ONLY UNTIL NOW IN THE CONTEXT OF ALL THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS DOES SHE UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE CONTEXT AND ESSENTIALLY THE EXTENT OF ALL OF THIS. SOME POWERFUL WORDS MOSTLY IN THE OPENS STATEMENT OBTAINED FROM “THE NEW YORK TIMES” ABOUT WHY SHE FELT THIS WAS SIGNIFICANT. SHE SAID BECAUSE OF THE SMEAR CAMPAIGN WAS MADE UP OF UNFOUNDED AND FALSE CHASE BY PEOPLE SHE SAYS WITH CLEARLY QUESTIONABLE MOTIVES. OF COURSE A REFERENCE THERE TO RUDY GIULIANI.>>WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF THE CONGRESS WHO HEARD HER TESTIMONY TODAY? DID THEY HEAR THE SAME THING?>>Reporter: NOT AT ALL. AND THAT IS TYPICAL FOR THESE SORTS OF THINGS. WE JUST HEARD FROM REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, TOP DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ON THE COMMITTEE LEAVING THIS ROOM AFTER THAT MARATHON SESSION TONIGHT AND THEIR REACTION PREDICTABLY, NOT SURPRISINGLY FELL INTO PARTISAN CAMPS. THE TOP DEMOCRAT ON THE INTEL COMMITTEE, ADAM SCHIFF, THE CHAIRMAN OF THAT COMMITTEE PRAISED YOVANOVITCH, SAYING SHE’S A MODEL DEMOCRAT AND DESERVED BETTER THAN THE SHABBY TREATMENT SHE RECEIVED FROM PRESIDENT. AND SCHIFF DID NOT TAKE QUESTIONS FROM REPORTERS TONIGHT OF WHICH THERE ARE MANY. REPUBLICANS COMING OUT OF THAT ROOM TONIGHT, ANDERSON, REALLY ATTACKED THE PROCESS. WE HEARD FROM MANY REPUBLICANS SAYING THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN AN OPEN TESTIMONY, SAYING THAT THEY THEMSELVES DID NOT THINK THAT THEY LEARNED ANYTHING THAT WAS CLASSIFIED SO WHY SHOULD THIS BE HELD BEHIND CLOSED DOORS? SO CERTAINLY BOTH SIDES HEARING AND SEEING WHAT THEY WANTED TO SEE AND LIKELY THAT WILL — CERTAINLY THAT SORT OF PATTERN WILL HEAD INTO NEXT WEEK WHEN WE’LL HEAR MANY MORE DEPOSITIONS AND OUTCOMES OF. DEPOSITIONS ON CAPITOL HILL.>>IN TERMS OF THE PEOPLE INQUIRY, HOW SOON DO DEMOCRATS EXPECT TO GET THROUGH UPCOMING WITNESSES?>>THEY HAVE QUITE THE JAM PACKED SCHEDULE OF DEPOSITION WITNESSES. EVEN TONIGHT THE CHAIRMAN. COMMITTEE, ADAM SCHIFF, SAYING THEY ARE MOVING WITH A NEW SENSE OF URGENCY, THAT THEY ARE MAKING PROGRESS AND HE PROMISED POTENTIALLY MORE DEPOSITIONS COMING UP THAT WE DON’T KNOW ABOUT, MORE SUBPOENAS COMING UP THAT WE AT THIS POINT DON’T KNOW ABOUT, SO THEY’RE CLEARLY PUSHING AHEAD. IT COMES AS YOU RIGHTFULLY POINT OUT THAT THE REPUBLICANS AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAVE BEEN CALLING FOR THIS FULL VOTE ON THE HOUSE FLOOR TO AUTHORIZE THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, NANCY PELOSI, SO FAR HAS BEEN HESITANT TO DO. SHE SAID SHE DOESN’T THINK IT’S NECESSARY. SHE HAS NOT RULED IT OUT BUT SHE DOESN’T THINK SHE HAS TO BECAUSE OF THE CONSTITUTION. IT WILL BE MOST NOTABLE EARLY NEXT WEEK WHEN EVERYONE IS BACK ON CAPITOL HILL AFTER THIS TWO-WEEK RECESS WHEN HOUSE DEMOCRATS WILL CONVENE IN THEIR WEEKLY CONFERENCE CAUCUS MEETING. WE’LL SEE IF THIS SMALL GROUP OF DEMOCRATS WHO ARE SAYING WE SHOULD GO AHEAD AND AUTHORIZE THIS IN THE FULL HOUSE FLOOR, WE WILL SEE IF THAT HAS ANY SWAY WITH THE LEADERS OF THE DEMOCRATS. ANDERSON?>>THANK YOU VERY MUCH. APPRECIATE IT. CONGR CONGRESSMAN, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US. APPRECIATE IT.>>GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.>>I WANT TO GET TO YOUR TRIP IN UKRAINE IN JUST A MOMENT BECAUSE THE TIMING OF IT COULD NOT BE MORE IMPORTANT. I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE AMBASSADOR’S TESTIMONY. I’M WONDERING WHAT YOU MAKE OF WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED SO FAR THAT THERE WAS ALLEGEDLY THIS, QUOTE, CONCERTED CAMPAIGN AGAINST HER, ACCORDING TO HER TESTIMONY.>>WELL, FIRST OF ALL, SHE’S AN EXTRAORDINARY WOMAN, OBVIOUSLY SKILLED AS A DIPLOMAT BUT OBVIOUSLY VERY, VERY, VERY COURAGEOUS, WILLING TO SPEAK TO POWER AND NOT BE PUT DOWN BY THE PRESIDENT BUT RATHER TO CARRY OUT HER CONSTITUTIONAL AND HER OATH OF OFFICE, THAT IS TO OBEY THE CONSTITUTION AND TO COME FORWARD WITH WHATEVER INFORMATION SHE HAS. WITH REGARD TO HER TESTIMONY, THE DEPOSITION PROCESS IS ONE OF GATHERING DATA AND INFORMATION. THERE WILL UNDOUBTEDLY BE HEARINGS, PERHAPS SHE’LL BE COMING BACK. THIS IS A PROCESS THAT’S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, UNDERSTANDING THE DETAILS, THE TIMELINES, THE VARIOUS EVENTS THAT WENT ON. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT GIULIANI WAS OUT THERE PLAYING GAMES, NOT ONLY PERHAPS FOR HIS OWN POCKET AND FOR THE POCKET OF THE TWO FELLAS THAT WERE JUST INDICTED BUT ALSO TO LAY OUT AN INVESTIGATION FOR — AGAINST BIDEN. ALL OF THAT IS PROBABLY IN THE DEPOSITION, IT PROBABLY THERE AND THERE WILL BE FURTHER INFORMATION I THINK SONDLAND’S COMING IN NEXT WEEK. IN IS ALL PART OF THE UNRAVELING OF DONALD TRUMP.>>FOR THE PRESIDENT TO BE CLAIMING THAT HIS CONVERSATION WITH THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE WAS ALL ABOUT FIGHTING CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE AND RUDY GIULIANI WAS AT THE POINTY END OF THE SPEAR OF AN ANTI-CORRUPTION DRIVE IN UKRAINE, IS JUST LUDICROUS, PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU LEARN THAT THE AMBASSADOR HERSELF WAS PUSHING FORWARD AN AGGRESSIVE ANTI-CORRUPTION PROGRAM IN UKRAINE AND RAN AFOUL OF THEORETICALLY CORRUPT OR SHADY OFFICIALS THERE.>>WELL, THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT. WHEN WE MET WITH THE OFFICIALS, THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE WHO HAD ACTUALLY BEEN IN OFFICE JUST TWO WEEKS AND THE FOREIGN MINISTER, THEIR PRINCIPAL GOAL WAS TO ROOT OUT CORRUPTION, TO GET RID OF THE CORRUPTION, EVEN SO MUCH SO THAT WE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT HOW THE MILITARY CAN PUT IN PLACE AN INSPECTOR GENERAL. BEYOND THAT, WE ALSO WHEN WE MET JUST OUTSIDE THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE AMBASSADOR TAYLOR WAS THERE TO GREET US AT THE VERY MOMENT THAT OUR SMARTPHONES WERE SAYING HIS TWEET MESSAGE WAS THERE. WE CLIMBED OFF THE BUS AND CONGRATULATED HIM FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH. WHAT IS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION UP TO? TRYING TO PLAY GAMES WITH THE $400 MILLION ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL MILITARY SUPPLIES AND TRAINERS TO GO WITH IT. CIVIL SERVANTS ARE STANDING UP. THEY’RE THERE TO SERVE THE CONSTITUTION AND THE AMERICAN SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT. WE’RE SEEING TWO EXAMPLES RIGHT THERE. LET’S PUT THE TWO WHISTLE-BLOWERS ON THE SAME LINE, STANDING UP TO POWER, CALLING IT AS IT IS AND SAYING SOMETHING’S TERRIBLY WRONG HERE. SO LET’S HEAR IT FOR THE CIVIL SERVANTS OUT THERE THAT TRUMP HAS SPENT MOST OF HIS CAREER TRYING TO DUMP.>>YOU JUST MENTIONED BILL TAYLOR. HE’S THE SENIOR DIPLOMAT TO UKRAINE. HE WROTE THAT TEXT MESSAGE TO AMBASSADOR SONDLAND FROM THE EU SAYING I THINK IT CRAZY TO WITHHOLD ASSISTANCE FOR HELP WITH A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN AND THEY THERE WAS THE FIVE-HOUR GAP AND AMBASSADOR SONDLAND KIND OF READ OUT A STATEMENT, ESSENTIALLY, SOUNDED LIKE IT WAS COMING FROM DONALD TRUMP.>>THAT’S WHAT WE CALL THE CLASSIC CYA MEMO THAT GOES OUT. SOME MEMLAWYER SAID OH MY GOD, HAVE A PROBLEM HERE. YES, WE DO. KEEP IN MIND, WE HAVE A PROBLEM IN THE WHITE HOUSE. THE TRANSCRIPT THAT WAS NOT COMPLETE WENT INTO THE DEEP VAULT NEVER TO BE SEEN BY ANYBODY AGAIN. I HAVE NEWS FOR THE PRESIDENT. WE’RE GOING TO SEE WHAT’S IN THAT VAULT. WE’LL FIND OUT EXACTLY WHAT WAS SAID IN HIS OWN WORD AND WE’RE GOING TO FIND OUT, I WANT YOU TO DO A FAVOR, THOUGH. YEAH, THERE YOU HAVE IT. TRUMP BROKE THE LAW.>>DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS A RECORDING OF THE CONVERSATION? DO YOU THINK THERE IS A MORE FULL TRANSCRIPT? SOMEWHERE?>>WELL, WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE NIXON PERIOD, EXCEPT FOR THAT 18 MINUTES THAT DISAPPEARED? I’M SURE THERE’S A RECORDING, IF NOT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THERE’S A RECORDING SOMEWHERE. AND FOR SURE THE UKRAINIANS HAVE A RECORDING, ALTHOUGH I’M SURE THEY DON’T WANT TO RELEASE IT. YOU JUST GOT TO FEEL FOR THIS PRESIDENT, A NEW GUY COMES IN, 75% VOTE, HAS A SUPER MAJORITY IN HIS OWN PARLIAMENT AND THEN TRUMP COMES IN AND LAYS THE HEAVY HIT ON HIM SAYING PLAY WITH ME OR ELSE. AND HE JUST HAS NO PLACE TO GO. THIS PRESIDENT IS STRONG, HE WANTS TO DO RIGHT BY HIS COUNTRY, HE’S FIGHTING A MAJOR BATTLE WITH THE RUSSIANS. 14,000 UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THAT FIGHT AND TRUMP IS OUT JUST TO FEATHER HIS OWN NEST TO TRY TO WIN AN ELECTION. IT IS JUST OUTRAGEOUS WHAT’S HAPPENED HERE.>>YEAH. YEAH. HUMAN BEINGS’ LIVES ARE AT STAKE.>>EXACTLY. AND MORE.>>CONGRESSMAN JOHN GARAMENDI, I REALLY APPRECIATE TALKING TO YOU. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.>>COMING UP, I’LL TALK TO TWO VETERANS FROM THE WATERGATE ADMINISTRATION ABOUT HOW DONALD TRUMP SEEMS TO BE DISTANCING>>>MULTIPLE BREAKING NEWS STORIES WE’RE REPORTING TONIGHT. A SOURCE TELLS CNN THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS DISTANCING HIMSELF FROM HIS PERSONAL ATTORNEY RUDY GIULIANI. RUDY GIULIANI STILL WORKS FOR THE PRESIDENT BUT WON’T WORK WITH UKRAINE MATTERS. THIS COMES AS TWO ASSOCIATES WERE CHARGED WITH CAMPAIGN FINANCE VIOLATIONS AND INVESTIGATORS ARE PROBING RUDY GIULIANI’S FINANCIAL DEALINGS WITH THE TWO MEN. THIS AFTER A MAN WHOSE CAREER WAS DESTROYED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP TESTIFIED AGAINST GIULIANI AND HIS ASSOCIATES. TWO VETERANS OF THE WATERGATE INVESTIGATIONS JOINS US NOW, RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST AND JOURNALIST CARL BERNSTEIN. CARL, LET’S TALK ABOUT THE AMBASSADOR’S TESTIMONY. HOW PROBLEMATIC DO YOU THINK IT COULD BE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE POTENTIAL TESTIMONY NEXT WEEK OF AMBASSADOR SONDLAND, WHO IS A SUPPORTER OF THE PRESIDENT’S?>>VERY CONSEQUENTIAL AND I THINK WE ALREADY KNOW THAT. THERE’S A WHOLE SERIES OF WITNESSES WHO ARE REALLY IN A POSITION TO DO THE PRESIDENT GREAT DAMAGE BECAUSE THEY’RE TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT LOOKS LIKE A CONSPIRACY INVOLVING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO UNDERMINE OUR VERY BASIS OF FREE ELECTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY BY ENGAGING A FOREIGN POWER TO INTERFERE WITH THE OPPOSITION CANDIDATE FACING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. WE’VE NEVER HAD A SITUATION WHERE A FOREIGN POWER HAS BEEN CALLED UPON BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, AS IT APPEARS FROM HIS OWN WORDS, TRUMP’S OWN WORDS THAT WE’VE SEEN HE DID THIS. NOW IT’S UP TO OTHER WITNESSES TO FILL IN MORE INFORMATION AND THAT’S INDEED WHAT WE SAW THE AMBASSADOR DO TODAY AND WE HAVE MANY OTHERS COMING. AND ALSO THE WHOLE QUESTION OF JOHN BOLTON, THE PRESIDENT’S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER, WHO HEARD THAT CONVERSATION WITH THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE. BOLTON IS IN A POSITION AND HE APPARENTLY SCURRIED AND KNEW HOW DAMAGING THAT CONVERSATION WAS. IT ALL GETS BACK TO WHAT THE AMBASSADOR WAS ALSO TESTIFYING ABOUT TODAY. SO THERE’S A CIRCLE THAT IS CLOSING IN, AN EVIDENTIARY CIRCLE THAT’S VERY DAMAGING TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND TODAY THAT CIRCLE GOT TIGHTER.>>RICHARD, I’M WONDERING WHERE YOU SEE WHERE THE INVESTIGATION IS SO FAR. I MEAN, THE PRESIDENT TODAY NOT EVEN SAYING OR COULDN’T SAY WHETHER RUDY GIULIANI WAS STILL HIS LAWYER OR NOT. HE SAID “I DON’T KNOW.”>>HE’S MADE A NUMBER OF BIZARRE STATEMENTS RECENTLY, THIS BUSINESS ABOUT HIS ACUMEN, HIS BRILLIANCE, HIS UNMATCHED ABILITY TO TELL WHAT THE TURKS ARE GOING TO DO AND WHETHER THEY’RE GOING TO CROSS A LINE. ALL OF THIS STUFF IS REMINISCENT OF WHEN NIXON WAS UNDER SUCH PRESSURE, THE “I AM NOT A CROOK” SPEECH. ALL OF THIS IS VERY REMINISCENT. I THINK THE MOST DISTURBING THING, AS CARL HAS MENTIONED, IS THE INABILITY TO ACCEPT THE NORMATIVE PRECEPTS OF OUR CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT AND THE BALANCE OF POWERS BETWEEN CONGRESS AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, WHICH THE PRESIDENT REFUSES REPEATEDLY TO ACCEPT. AND I THINK THE FOCUS GROUP FROM WISCONSIN WAS VERY TELLING IN THE WAY THEY ANALYZED THIS. YOU KNOW, PEOPLE USE THEIR GOD-GIVEN COMMON SENSE AND EVERY DAY EXPERIENCE WHEN SOMEONE LIES TO THEM, WHEN SOMEONE REFUSES TO GIVE INFORMATION AND HIDES ACCESS TO WITNESSES AND TESTIMONY AND DOCUMENTS, THEY ASK THE QUESTION AS WE DID WHEN NIXON WAS PRESIDENT WHY IS HE GOING TO SUCH LENGTHS TO KEEP THIS INFORMATION FROM THE PUBLIC? AND WITH NIXON’S CASE WE KNOW WHY. THE INFORMATION WAS DAMNING.>>CARL, I’M WONDERING, I MEAN, HOW MUCH OF ANY IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY IS DICTATED BY PUBLIC

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